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Sticky:[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 11 post(s)
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 465	Posted - 2014.08.14 12:55:00 - [1] - Quote Harvey James wrote: .. arties really need too trade some alpha for ROF. and everything would start creeping towards each other to becoming the same.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 466	Posted - 2014.08.14 14:57:00 - [2] - Quote Zealot: Gets overshadowed by the NOmen. The ship generally feels underwhelming and can't project dps anything like the Ishtar can. Scariledge: Is a good brawler. Don't think this needs much help. HML's maybe a little too underwhelming to be used on this. Eagle: Not bad but needs a dronebay along with the speed buff you have already put in this thread. Cerberus: Pretty well balanced kiter/brawler and can project with HML and also create an anti frigate bubble. Diemos: Very well balanced HAC. Can perform multiple roles but excels in solo brawling. Ishtar: Still overpowered even after this nerf. Projects far too much dps over far too much range. I think the only way to fix the Ishtar is to create small and medium sentry drones and reduce the bandwidth to 50M/Bits and increase bonus to medium drones. Vagabond: Only issue with this ship is that it's dull. It can do two things and that's it. XL-ASB brawling or kite. Only thing I would change on this ship is to move a low to a mid and buff the CPU by 10%. Muninn: Awful sniper. Underwhelming brawler. Can kind of kite with arties but it's a poor performer. Could use an extra gun or an extra low slot. Needs better projection too.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 468	Posted - 2014.08.15 08:34:00 - [3] - Quote Harvey James wrote: [its not about better or worse .. its about roles .. Vaga is a HAC HAC= resilient .. so tough not speedy ... Cynabal and stabber are both Attack cruisers.. Attack = speedy not tough vaga seems too be both roles at the same time... ....and why is this a problem? If you fit it for "Attack" role it's a speedy kiter with good projection damage and a great tank for a kiter (hint: a L-ASB gives you more HP than a LSE II) When fitted for brawling you get a fast brawler with 600 dps (selectable) and an effective tank of 93k eHP (10 cycles XL-ASB with Invul and ASB overloaded). My only issue with the Vagabond is that this is all it can do. There are essentially two fits. I think if we moved a low to a mid and buffed the cpu by 10% it would open a couple more options but it wouldn't be super multi role.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 468	Posted - 2014.08.16 14:07:00 - [4] - Quote afkalt wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: When fitted for brawling you get a fast brawler with 600 dps (selectable) and an effective tank of 93k eHP (10 cycles XL-ASB with Invul and ASB overloaded). Whilst you're not wrong, it's worth pointing out that if the DPS spikes enough, you can pop between cycles as you have a very small buffer to soak up a few good hits. and the dual rep Diemos isn't exactly swimming in hp buffer but it does just fine. It also has a sig radius that's 20% larger than the Vagabonds! But if the Vaga pushed a low to a mid and got a CPU buff it would be fan-effin'-tastic. You could even dual invul fit it and have an insane tank! EDIT: which might make the ship silly actually. just did the maths and with HG crystal set it's an obscene tank and if you swap a T2 Invul for a Pith A-Type you're looking at an effective EHP after 10 overloaded cycles of 192k EHP. Another mid might actually break the Vagabond
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 468	Posted - 2014.08.19 06:27:00 - [5] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: No sosrry they are not the TRULY fastest. EFT warriros might think so, but in REAL game, where acceleration matters, minmatar shps are trashed. What that means? THat before they can reach their final superior speed a gallente boat will outaccelerate them and tackle them. Minmatar need to go back to their roots. Lose a bit of EHP and lose a bit of mass (or gain agility) However this was discussed in great depth a long time ago. Before the balance pass begun. Speed and accelleration are too powerful to have both. I personnally wanted Minmatar to be the most agile and retain acceleration and have Gallente have the fastest straight line speed. However it went the other way but it is balanced. Speed OR Acceleration. You can't have both.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 468	Posted - 2014.08.19 11:24:00 - [6] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: No sosrry they are not the TRULY fastest. EFT warriros might think so, but in REAL game, where acceleration matters, minmatar shps are trashed. What that means? THat before they can reach their final superior speed a gallente boat will outaccelerate them and tackle them. Minmatar need to go back to their roots. Lose a bit of EHP and lose a bit of mass (or gain agility) However this was discussed in great depth a long time ago. Before the balance pass begun. Speed and accelleration are too powerful to have both. I personnally wanted Minmatar to be the most agile and retain acceleration and have Gallente have the fastest straight line speed. However it went the other way but it is balanced. Speed OR Acceleration. You can't have both. Speed is USeless without acceleration. Just test the following. EAGLE.. yes eagle with mwd slow boating while a vagabon orbit it. A vaga will want to orbit roughly around 16 km to avoid web while at same time do some real damage. The eagle can Tackle the vgabond AT WILL!!! Just because vagabond alck of agility makes it unable to turn ad gain speed fast enough . The eagle will TAKE on the vaga and tackle it EASILY. Speed without acceleration is ok when you have a good damage projection. When trackign enhancers were nerfged.. that was gone. We as a corp are quite renowed for flying 99% kite ships. And guess what.. we use almost only caldari and gallente ships.... NEver minamtar. Why? Because minmatar are among the worst kite ships due to their high mass and bad agility. The best kite boats in game are the Orthrus and The TENGU!!! My Kiting focused clone has a NOMAD set, not a snake set.. know why? Becuase agility is Far far more relevant in real fight conditions. Your max speed is irrelevant if you take so long to get there that you are tackled before you reach 30% of it... Minmatar should have OK mass and agility. NO need to have the best. But beign HORRIBLE is not acceptable and cancels completely their speed advantage. MInmatar should have reasonable agility and as compensation LESS EHP!!!!! But a Vagabond does have a faster rate of acceleration than an Eagle. The only HAC that comes close is the Deimos. The Vagabond has a rate of acceleration to 80% max velocity of 251.6 m/s^2 (MWD on but not overloaded) The Deimos has a rate of acceleration to 80% max velocity of 210.96 m/s^2 (MWD on but not overloaded) The Eagle and Zealot are slower by far. However both of these ships posses better projection. I'm cunfused as to what you think Minmatar ships are supposed to be able to achieve. If you think that they should be able to burn from 0 m/s at a range of zero from the target (worst case scenario) out of tackle range without the enemy having a chance to tackle/keep up then you've no idea what you're talking about. That's the exact problem we had a few years ago. Minmatar ships were un catchable because they had (by far) the best speed, acceleration and projection in the game. Gallente ships didn't stand a chance because they couldn't do anything with their crappy speed and acceleration coupled to the shortest range weapons in the game. I'm sure (in fact I know) that you can achieve the days gone past with Winmatar ships by sacrificing tank/projection/dps but that's the whole point. You gotta make a sacrifice!
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 468	Posted - 2014.08.20 11:16:00 - [7] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: The WHOLE complain about ishtar is exactly on that large fights. No one is complaining of ishtars in hihg sec mercenary combat that invovles 3-4 ships. And no its not dead regardless of weapons. What other hac can kill at same range targets with so much EHP and at same time be able to sniper tackler at closer range? NO OTHER HAC CAN! errrm, people are complaining about the Ishtars abilities in small gang aswell as large scale. The Ishtar is obscenely overpowered. I still believe that the whole issue would simply be fixed by creating small and medium sentry drones. Then reducing the Ishtars bandwidth to 50M/Bit and changing the bonuses to medium drones. The damage bonus would have to be increased a little but the projection issue (which I think is the biggest issue) would be solved.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 468	Posted - 2014.08.21 08:54:00 - [8] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Spugg Galdon wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: The WHOLE complain about ishtar is exactly on that large fights. No one is complaining of ishtars in hihg sec mercenary combat that invovles 3-4 ships. And no its not dead regardless of weapons. What other hac can kill at same range targets with so much EHP and at same time be able to sniper tackler at closer range? NO OTHER HAC CAN! errrm, people are complaining about the Ishtars abilities in small gang aswell as large scale. The Ishtar is obscenely overpowered. I still believe that the whole issue would simply be fixed by creating small and medium sentry drones. Then reducing the Ishtars bandwidth to 50M/Bit and changing the bonuses to medium drones. The damage bonus would have to be increased a little but the projection issue (which I think is the biggest issue) would be solved. On small scale fights I do not even see the isthar that much. And when I say small I do nto mean 50 man roaming gnags. Those are already LARGE fleets. Small scale means 3-4 people. I see them all the time and use them all the time. Small Ishtar gangs are actually killing PvP. Even solo Ishtars! I warp to anything in an Ishtar and they run away. Seriously. It's rediculous. Even when I'm PvE fit competing for a site with a strategic cruiser. They run away and leave me to the site. If I'm solo myself, I will always avoid an Ishtar. That is a problem. And I'm extremely Leeroy Jenkins. I've whelped fleets just fun fun but if I see Ishtars and I know we don't have moar Ishtars than them then we don't engage.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 473	Posted - 2014.08.26 08:18:00 - [9] - Quote Although the Ishtar is very overpowered (it's broken) I do believe the other HACs (some of them at least) are a little underpowered. Especially when you consider their role. I also think we need to really consider what we think HAC's should be able to do. I think the Sacriledge, the Cerberus, the Deimos and the Vagabond are very good examples of what these ships should be able to achieve. The Sac is an excellent brawling platform that can also be pressed into being a HML long range armour fleet. It does actually work in the "sniper role" although it does rely on some drone dps out to 85 km. It could still be an option for a fleet doctrine (think Drakes of olde but armour instead of shield) The Cerb is pretty damn good at what it does. It does appear to have a weak tank on paper but it does perform exceptionally well at what it's supposed to do which is spew missile dps. The Deimos is a superb brawler. Although it's abilities as a sniper are quite poor it's still an extremely well balanced ship for brawling and close/medium range stuff. The Vaga although (in my opinion) a two trick pony I believe it's in a very good place right now. These four ships should be the base line of what the others can achieve. The DPS, damage projection, tank and mobility of these for ships should dictate the abilities of the others which are either totally overpowered (Ishtar) or totally useless in their intended role. The Zealot is supposed to be a fleet sniper. Unfortunately it's pretty poor at this as it has some fitting restrictions and simply can't compete in range or dps. It needs a buff in PG and CPU in order to be able to fit the modules it needs to do it's job. It also needs a stronger bonus to optimal range however to achieve this I think it should drop the laser cap use bonus for an optimal range bonus (double range bonuses similar to the Eagle). This way the ship can project an acceptable amount of damage at long range but would have capacitor issues only when trying to shoot and use an MWD. The Eagle isn't fantastic at either brawling or it's intended role as a shield sniper. It simply can't produce enough damage. If the ship swapped a low for a high slot and gained a turret hardpoint (why does it have a weird launcher hardpoint?) it would get a resonable boost in dps at long and short range whilst still focusing on guns. It does also need a small drone bay. 15M/bits 15m^3 maximum. The Ishtar simply needs the implementation of medium sentry drones that have medium weapon stats. Battleship sized sentry drones are just obscenely overpowered on this ship. Medium sentry drones would also open a huge number of options for other ships which may need to be explored first to avoid any isues with other ship balance. The Muninn is a ship that is in need of dire help. Although it is a really good brawler it is pathetic in it's intended role of fleet sniper. I know the optimal range bonus is designed for sniping but switching this to a falloff bonus would actually give the Muninn longer range. To compensate for fighting in falloff range the ship could use an extra turret slot. The fact the ship would struggle to fit a full rack of 425mm AC's, MWD and a 1600mm plate would compensate for the dps increase it would receive in brawler mode. If the DPS is still too high just cut it's drones down to 15 M/bits to lower the DPS a little. EDIT it may also needs and extra bit of PG due to the extreme PG required to fit arties or perhaps change the rig that reduces turret CPU usage for PG usage and have the drawback increase turret CPU use. Well, that's my opinion of a balance pass to these ships to make them all viable in their roles.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 473	Posted - 2014.08.27 08:37:00 - [10] - Quote EvE (Everyone vs Everyone) is 100% PvP. When you do missions you are competing with others to complete them faster to get the rewards faster and get all the loot. When you do industry you're competing to be the most efficient. When you do exploration you're competing to find stuff first. When you trade you are competing in market PvP and then there is the obvious combat. Everything you do in EvE is a competitive thing against others. You may not think it but it is.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 476	Posted - 2014.09.03 11:28:00 - [11] - Quote Escort DarkAven wrote: Now the Eagle on earth, is a majestic hunter, feared by all its prey. In EvE the Eagle is a joke, and everyone laughs at it, and then blows it up. So i guess this is a plea to the EvE gods, Fozzie and Rise, if they could help the Eagle out. My own Quick, and possibly feeble thoughts on the Eagle, should be to change the hulls bonusses to make it a worthy contender. New Eagle bonusses Caldari Cruiser skill: 4% Shield Resist Bonus 5% Hybrid Damage bonus HAC skill: 25% Bonus to hybrid optimal range 2-3% increase to hybrid damage bonus ( or maybe 5% bonus to hybrid blaster damage ) (also give it som utility, by giving it a dronebay (25m3 bandwith maybe 50hull?) i Honestly hope, something good will happen to the eagle. Personally, I think if you push a low slot to a high slot and buff it's pg/cpu to fit an extra gun it will make a huge difference to the hull and won't break it's intended role (it will actually make it a viable sniper) without giving the ship silly large bonuses (like 25% optimal range bonus per level) Have a look at what it would do with 6 guns and only 3 low slots. Makes sense to me. After that, maybe, just maybe though, consider adding a small drone bay of 15m^3
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 476	Posted - 2014.09.04 09:18:00 - [12] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: Escort DarkAven wrote: Personally, I think if you push a low slot to a high slot and buff it's pg/cpu to fit an extra gun it will make a huge difference to the hull and won't break it's intended role (it will actually make it a viable sniper) without giving the ship silly large bonuses (like 25% optimal range bonus per level) Have a look at what it would do with 6 guns and only 3 low slots. Makes sense to me. After that, maybe, just maybe though, consider adding a small drone bay of 15m^3 Giving it an extra gun is basically adding a little over 25% damage to it, but unlike the hull bonus i presented, giving it more fitting to add an extra gun, would possibly push the fit in an unhealthy direction... the tank, and the general fit of the ship is just fine... the damage is not. Also when looking at HACs in general, all Races except caldari has: One brawling HAC: Deimos, Sac, Muninn One Kiting HAC: Zealot, vagabond, Ishtar (sentry kiting) however the caldari, has kiting, and super mega long range sniping... My point about the Eagle wasnt that it couldnt do the task it currently has, its that it ONLY does that task. Making it into a brawler/sniper boat, is better then a Sniper/deadweight boat. The basic fact that all other HACs in the game has a double damage bonus, while the eagle doesnt, is a pure and simple problem. If you give the Eagle an extra high slot and an extra turret hardpoint it would get a 20% buff in damage. Due to the fact that you're trading a low for a high you lose either a MFS II or a DCU II. This means that you would have to choose between damage and tank in your lows. In order to be able to use the extra high slot the ship would require a 15% PG buff to it's basic PG value (990-1138.5). After these two changes and all level 5 skills are applied you end up with something like this: A 250mm Rail Eagle will be just shy of enough PG and CPU to fully T2 fit so a pilot would require to use downgraded/faction modules or implants to fully T2 fit.The ship would be capable of 515 DPS @ 53+25km (CN AM) or 430 DPS @ 79+25 (with CN Uranium). This performance actually makes the Eagle a viable Shield Fleet Sniper platform. It's direct competitors are the Naga, Rokh and Vulture (Ferox can compete but it's not great). These ships all have unique differences to the Eagle and posses their own advantages and disadvantages meaning the Eagle isn't crowded out of the role and finds it's own place within the ship line up. When Blaster fit the above changes only buff the ships DPS by 20% while still not making it a simple matter to fit in either the buffer or XL-ASB versions. The ship still comes across as "weaker" when compared to the other HAC's in the brawling role and this could be very easily fixed with a small 15m^3 drone bay. This way you don't need to mess around with the ships intended role(s) or bonuses and only need to change a couple of simple things.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 476	Posted - 2014.09.04 14:23:00 - [13] - Quote Stitch Kaneland wrote: Tempest.. idk what to do. Web bonus seems a bit OP though. Tp bonus is pretty lame for a BS. 10% RoF and tracking bonus could be interesting. This is more or less the only thing to do to the Tempest. Although 10% damage would give the Tempest a large alpha advantage so both should be explored but I think the tracking bonus should be set in stone.
Spugg Galdon APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front 478	Posted - 2014.09.11 11:15:00 - [14] - Quote ...................and the next update is rapidaly approaching yet we are still playing "Ishtars Online". Can we get any infomation on what you think the Ishtar tweak has done to hte game? Personally, I feel like nothing has changed. We still field Ishtar fleets and they're still superior by a not just a margin but an entire page. I still use the Ishtar solo because it's still superb and a better choice than any other HAC. I would like to fly different ships in the game but until medium sentry drones are introduced and the Ishtar gets it's bonuses limited to those I think everyone will just keep flying it. Cause, you know, if you're not flying an Ishtar; you're doing it wrong.

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